Mouse and rat

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why this page?

the main problem in the context of mice and rats is actually that it is a challenge to keep these two species together in the same location. both don't like each other too much or maybe more precisely, the rats don't like the mice and the mice are afraid of the rats. therefore, it might be necessary to decide for one of these two species in one specific physical location since it might be too problematic to keep both in exactly the same place.

the reason for the latent animosity between these two species might be the following:

  • too similar to not ignore each other?
  • but not similar enough to accept each other?
  • but isn't it actually not only an inter-species problem, but also an intra-species problem because an adult male rat or mouse often defends its territory also against other male individuals of the same species? so, is the issue a male issue and I might have to write a page about that? but what about a female rat disliking a (male? and/or? female?) mouse?
  • rats regard the mice as their smaller and more efficient/dense (in terms of intelligence divided by body weight) competitors and the mice regard the rats as their physically and more important intelligently (although with a lower intelligence divided by body weight quotient) superior competitors

Still (partially?) possible to keep them together?

  • by common upbringing? but how to begin with?
  • especially considerate nutrition?
  • mutual feeding? when feeding takes place, are both species together and respecting each other? would an abundance of species-specific well chosen food be sufficient enough that the two species keep a distance to each other when eating food next to each other? or would they still try to just eat exactly the same piece of food despite an abundance of good food immediately next to it? do the humans have to be present so that the two species feel that they have to restrict themselves and be "docile" pets because of the human presence? and what might happen if such a feeding with human attendance works for a situation in which no humans are present? is common feeding the most risky activity or not? if yes, would it mean that when common feeding is already possible (maybe even without the continuous presence of a human?), that other mutual activities are also safe enough anyway or in most cases if even feeding in the same place is possible?
  • but (to which extent?) still depending on each individual of a species? would there be some (rat) individuals that are just not able or willing to be peaceful enough towards the mice while maybe some or all of their siblings of the same litter would accept the mice? Or might the opposite be the case that only a few or only a very few rat individuals might accept mice fully while all the rest of the rats, even siblings from their own litter, might (to a varying degree) not accept the mice?
  • but on the other hand, wouldn't it also be an issue of mice generally or an individual mouse maybe provoking a negative response from a rat by sniffing at it in a wrong or inappropriate way? or even biting it? but aren't mice actually hesitant or even afraid as far as rats are concerned?
  • holes to retreat for the mice
  • general retreat areas for mice
  • keeping the in the same house but still separated?
  • overlapping areas with holes where only the mice can go through that separate their retreat area from the common area that is at the same time also the rat's area? And would it also be possible to create some kind of retreat area for the rats exclusively (although they do not need it actually but more to ensure that this area can be without constant human supervision) (not by holes, that would make no sense since mice fit through any hole that a rat fits through) but maybe by creating some bridges or jump or "high access" obstacles that only a juvenile or adult rat can quickly and seamlessly overcome but a mouse, even an adult mouse, not? so would there be three areas? but what about an already walking but still small rat? would it be able to follow the older rats or just autonomously explore the area and access the overlapping area by going "downwards" with the help of gravity but not upwards again? so would there have to be some kind of two-sided obstacles so that only a rat that is able access the common are from the ground in the middle to get back into its exclusive area would also be able to overcome the first obstacle and therefore, it could be prevented that walking but too small rats that might only be a little bit larger or the same size like an adult mouse accidentally get into the common area but not back?

but generally, one area for the rats exclusively, one area for both and one area for the mice exclusively, would that be a good idea? would the mice still have enough time to retreat if a rat doesn't want them and how large would the common area have to be maximally?

and what about allowing/letting small animals like rats and/or mice roaming (partially) outside the house?

  • cold? heat?
  • sunlight? (At least mice don't like intensive sunlight too much as I have read on the Internet.)
  • how to retreat back into the house? do they find their way always back also in deep winter? but would a rat or mouse voluntarily go outside even for a very short interval when the temperature is below water freezing point?
  • where: balcony? natural ground?
  • in case of natural ground: how to limit or fence the area on the surface but also underground? how deep could the mice or rats dig? might there be natural holes or pathways from other animals (for example a mole) where the limitation respectively the fence is built? how to detect such potentially previously existing pathways? to which extent does soil consistency matter?
  • what about bird predators? is a safety net necessary? are they more safe on a balcony because the bird predators do not enter a balcony? but a natural soil?

This section here is not finished yet

And is it (really) necessary to keep as many animal species together in the same place? What might be the advantage or reason? Biological integration as a goal in mind? And what might be the disadvantage of the goal of keeping as many species together as possible?

Other issues (maybe for other pages)

And why are other rodents or hares/rabbits or guinea pigs not mentioned on this page here? Are there some "more useful" "appropriate" or "dense" species?

And which species do I exactly mean with "mouse" or "mice"? Mus musculus? (which subspecies or colors? lab mice? pet mice?)

And which species do I exactly mean with "rat" or "rats"? Rattus rattus? (which subspecies or colors? lab rats? pet rats?)

And what about crossbreeding with wild animals (don't forget to mind illnesses that wild animals might have)? Or truly wild animals? What are the differences?

advantages of a rat over a mouse

  • more intelligent (implications for mathematics?)
  • larger: lower likelihood of being accidentally stamped on (UTSARA)
  • short-term: lower ultrasound, better communication with humans
  • better able to interact and communicate with larger animals like dogs and possibly cats in terms of size and voice/(ultra)sound frequency
  • a larger animal like a dog or possibly a cat "understands" a rat better than mouse in terms of size voice/(ultra)sound frequency
  • easier communication between a larger animal and a dog or cat because of similar (lower) ultrasound ranges
  • better vision than a mouse? both animals seem to have quite a limited vision

advantages of a mouse over a rat

  • long-term: a mouse has higher ultrasound ?=> better for the future?
  • smaller => more sustainable
  • less large/deep bites than a rat should a bite happen (an important point, also UTSARA relevant)
  • eats less
  • smaller digested food and water remains, less cleanup effort
  • more easy / less demanding to keep
  • needs less room in the house: while a rat should at least have the whole house as a roaming area (and not just one or a few rooms), it would be more possible to keep a mouse also in a relatively small house or apartment with only a few rooms (but just one single room is not enough also in case of mouse)
  • there is probably a better communication between a mouse and a bat because of the higher ultrasound range of mice compared to rats. And bats (at least as far as I suppose it) have also a considerably high ultrasound range, probably even higher than mice, so bats and mice might be more compatible in terms of mutual ultrasound communication

Should I open an own page for possible mouse-bat or rat-bat or mouse-rat-bat interaction? But it would be hypothetical anyway because I have no experience at all in it. And what about (egg producing) chickens roaming around in the house too? How well does a mouse and/or rat get along with a chicken (or another bird)?

And shouldn't I discuss the question of producing one's own food oneself and therefore a page about keeping a sufficient amount of egg- and milk (and what about meat?) producing animals?

which categories? just mouse and rat? or bat too? and what about the dog and cat category?